Steve (host):
Welcome to the eighth edition of Wonderspace which was originally released as a video orbit on the 26th of October 2020. Since then we've been asking the same 6 questions to people from around the world. Our questions revolve around life and wonder, places of reset and stories of hopefulness, which I think we need more than ever. The setting for all of our interviews is a virtual window seat on the space station, from where we see everything from a different perspective. This week our orbit takes us from the North Atlantic to the Middle East and joining us in these ultimate window seats we welcome Kate Fletcher and Matilda Tam.

Steve (host):
Kate is a professor at the Centre for Sustainable Fashion at the University of the Arts in London and Matilda is a Professor of Design at Linneus University in Sweden and is also affiliated with Goldsmiths University in London. Kate and Matilda collaborated on a Fashion Action Research Plan called Earth Logic, which you will hear about in their stories. I start by asking Kate, from this window seat 250 miles above Earth, Which place, city or country would you want us to fly over and why?

Kate:
A flypast across any city or country? Well I think For Matilda and I and our long-standing collaboration, I think we would have to fly across Southeast London, specifically swooping down for a close look at New Cross, which is where our collaboration began at Goldsmiths College, University of London. And I think, you know, back in the day when we met there, it was probably in the upstairs bedroom of a small terraced house as was probably but it was being used as an office at the time so at least it wasn't the loo, let's face it.

Steve (host):
Kate and Matilda give us a glimpse into your life story so far with an emphasis on what you're doing currently.

Mathilda:
So our life story as a collaboration started almost 20 years ago and we started working together. And our collaboration has always been about systems change in fashion. And with time we have grown our confidence and also our experience to really go straight to the crux of unsustainability which we very much see as the pressure of economic growth. And so we launched 9 months ago EarthLogic action research plan for fashion. And this proposes a shift from economic growth logic to EarthLogic, which is about putting the health of our planet and all living species before everything else.

Kate:
Matilda and I got to the point of Earth logic by experimenting and really developing a strong collaboration over these 20 years. We experimented with ideas of speed and slow culture in fashion. We did lots of other little sorts of exchanges and projects. And maybe 1 of the things that you realize in this life story of our collaboration is that it takes time to build really good ways of working and we're really benefiting from the time and the sort of the mutual affection and respect.

Mathilda:
Öreslögg comes out of our long experience from working together. And it also comes out of a sense of deep frustration that change is not happening fast enough and that change still very much is focused on tweaking fashion at the level of the product. And we now say that if we want to have the change we really need within the short time frame. We do need to go straight to the system and even to the paradigm where the purpose and meaning of all that we do is set and it can't be gross logic, it has to be Earth logic within the health of the planet.

Kate:
My place of reset and wonder is of course Anfield, but maybe you would think I would say that, what would we be in from Neverfull? Actually it's also an apple tree. I'm lucky enough now to live in a house with an old apple tree in the garden and there has never been a greater source of joy in my life to watch this tree with its incredible bountiful blossom in spring and then the gift of so much incredible fruit and then juice and then all the other stuff that it makes. It's incredible. And also what's great is that they're not keepers to these apples, so you have to share them.

Kate:
So the whole of my community neighborhood eats the most amazing apples too.

Steve (host):
What wonder of the natural world excites you the most?

Mathilda:
The wonder of the natural world that excites me the most is actually the resilience of nature that really causes my heart to miss a beat. Like when I see a dandelion growing up, really like forging its way up through the tarmac. And of course like the colors, scents, sounds like birdsong of nature that reminds me that we are really only small and here for a very short time. And this lockdown spring in London, Birdsong was actually louder than cars and it was the first time I could really smell the earth in the spring and it reminded me how industrial society literally silences nature and Nature is strong, but we do have to take care

Steve (host):
What is your story of hopefulness that's not your own about a person business or nonprofit who are doing amazing things for the world.

Kate:
So story of hopefulness, perhaps a root of hopeful thinking would be in the person, the wonder that is Danela Meadows. She was a systems thinker and a woman who has really stood up for a process of change and for increasingly encouraging people to deal and to stick with the big questions and not turn away. Danella Meadows famously introduced a list of places to intervene in a system. And she took a really savvy move when she invented that list because she ordered it upside down with the places that people are most likely to start at the top. But she also said that they're the least beneficial in terms of change.

Kate:
So she ordered the list upside down and also got us thinking very differently about what change means.

Mathilda:
And another person that gives us hope is Bell Hooks, an American professor, author, feminist and social activist. And it's particularly her brave work on love that continues to inspire us to bring in the emotional and personal in our change work. We have to see the big picture, but we always have to be rooted in ourselves and we always have to look after the relationships we have with other people.

Steve (host):
Finally, Kate and Matilda, as we prepare to reenter, What insight, wisdom or question would you like to share with us?

Mathilda:
The insight and wisdom we would like to share is the notion of staying with the trouble that comes from Donna Haraway. And for Us staying with the trouble means that making a shift from growth logic to earth logic is not simple, but we need to do it. We need, for example, to make sure there are employment opportunities also in the world of less. But we also think that a shift to Earth logic engages with the right sort of trouble. So challenging the logic of economic growth, that is about authentic change instead of, for example, attempting techno fixes, which is staying within the paradigm of economic growth.

Mathilda:
So we like to share staying with the trouble.

Kate:
So often people ask us about brands and EarthLogic and endorsements, But I suppose what we would like to say is that you can't buy earth logic. It's something that you practice. It's about how. And so maybe what we would suggest if you're interested in practicing earth logic is to try to find ways to connect fashion to place, for instance, to see if you can reflect natural conditions and the taste of those who live nearby in the sorts of ways that you were clothed. Also, maybe to think about how you can build a very plural team with people of different backgrounds, skills, ages, abilities, with other species also.

Kate:
And then also to hold very close the notion of care to build a very different engagement with what you were.

Steve (host):
Further information about the vital work and vision of Kate and Matilda can be found at earthlogic.info If you want to find out more about Wonderspace, join the community or listen to previous episodes the website is ourwonder.space I want to thank Kate and Matilda for joining us on Wonderspace and I hope you can join us again next week for more wonders and stories of hopefulness.